Interview by Ed McManis
In 1988, David Zindell’s novel Neverness made quite the splash in the science fiction world. Neverness tells the story of Mallory Ringess, a novice in the Order of Mystic Mathematicians, as he navigates a complex galaxy to find the “Elder Eddas,” a genetic secret to immortality hidden in humanity’s DNA.
A bidding war broke out between US and UK for publication and rights with Neverness awarded the highest advance, in the UK, for a first science fiction novel. Highly acclaimed, one critic called it “The Dune of the 1990s.” Other authors and critics had high praise for ZIndell as an author; A young Clark, a young Asimov. Zindell dismisses such accounts, laughs and says, “I’m just a writer.”
Fourteen novels followed Neverness, including collected short stories—Shanidar And Other Stories—and a memoir, Splendor. His latest novel, The Woman and the Whale, was published in April, 2026.
I learn that Zindell, now 73, plans to keep writing, keep creating in his Neverness universe. On a bright May morning in Denver, we talk about writing, old friends from the Northern Colorado Writer’s group, Nietzsche, AI, grandpas, and philosophy.
*
Ed: When did you know that you wanted to be a writer?
David: Pretty late.
Ed: What do you consider late?
David: Relatively late. Some writers say, “I knew I wanted to be a writer.” It’s something they always wanted to do. For me it didn’t occur to me until I was reading—what did I call it? NAN. The Nameless Awful Novel. It was science fiction and I thought, “This book is terrible.”
Ed: In your 20s?
David: I think I was in college. The book was published by Bantam or Penguin and I thought, “Someone got paid to do this.” I can do better than this.
Ed: So, it was a challenge?
David: Yeah. The motivation was also much more commercially oriented. I didn’t have the same literary ambitions then as I do now. I thought, “Just write a story that sells.” That was very attractive to me.
Ed: But you weren’t an English major in college.
David: At different times in college I was a math guy, a physics guy, and I majored in philosophy. I finally got a B.A. in math. University of Colorado. But what dissuaded me from doing math as a career, when you do math it branches out and keeps splitting into sub branches and what you end up doing is focusing on one little branch and you have no idea about what’s going on in the rest of your field. I used to hang out with a couple of profs at CU, when you could do that, and I remember I was talking in one office with a guy who specialized in set theory and his buddy was next door specializing in another branch of math and he had no idea what his buddy was doing. They couldn’t even talk to another math professor about what they were doing.
Ed: Interesting. I wonder if you’d get the same dynamic in literature?
David: No. You have one guy who specializes in Dickens, one in other lit.
Ed: But it’s all story.
David: Yeah, but they can still talk. So I thought, do I want to spend the rest of my life getting further and further out on a twig of that math tree? That maybe three people in the world understand what I’m doing. That wasn’t attractive to me.
Ed: And what drew you to philosophy?
David: I wanted to figure out what everything means.
Ed: Who are some of your philosophers? I saw Watts mentioned in some of your writings.
David: I’m not sure he’d be considered a philosopher by other philosophers. He said himself, I can’t remember the exact turn of phrase, but he said he was a “philosophical entertainer”. So, he realized he was entertaining people popularizing philosophy. He wasn’t an academic.
Ed: I remember in college one of my teachers called philosophy “common sense in a business suit.”
David: But it’s really not common sense, and that was my discouragement with philosophy. Again, it seemed like philosophers going out on their limb of philosophy. Here’s how I’m defining this term, that term, then spending a hundred pages defining that. It was just boring to me.
Ed: I had some of the same issues with some theology and religious studies. It was less about the big “thing”, truth, if you will, and more about being self-referential. The more references and quotes I have, the closer I am to the truth. Which didn’t track for me. Why would the truth need ten references?
David: (Laughs) “Love your neighbor.” And here are your citations. So, back to my philosophers, I was driven to philosophers who were well respected, bona fide, whose great works could be understood. Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, people like that.
Ed: So, with Nietzsche, his take on women. Did that ever bother you?
David: No. Nor did his innate superiority. He really thought that our society needed new values. His concept of the Superman was to establish new values. He said, basically, 99% of the human race has no value. Not fully conscious beings who aspire to higher things. It doesn’t matter that there are billions of them, he just called that multiplication by 0. That really stuck in my mind. This guy is a total snob. But I couldn’t do what everyone does now. Here’s this artist, intellectual star, whatever, then something bad is discovered about them. Which there always is—human beings, right? This person doesn’t like women, therefore he’s wrong about everything else. None of this…exclusion is of interest or value to me.
Ed: I have this discussion all the time with other writers, artists. Can you separate the artist and their personal life from their work? There are all these continuums and gradations. The latest for me is Michael Jackson. I loved his music, he’s a genius, then I learned about his let’s call it “issues” with kids. I don’t want to see the new movie about him, and I cringe now when I hear a song.
David: Well, everybody has those issues. I think plenty are not going to see the movie, but some are not going to turn off the radio if “Beat It” comes on.
Ed: So how do you separate the art from the artist?
David: Many people do have a problem separating them. I never did.
Ed: Is it the ability to bracket?
David: There are degrees. And it depends too on whether the artist is still producing or not. Let’s say, here’s a sexual predator who has a new album. Do I want to contribute to his personal finances, to his personal power? But that’s a separate question. Should I put Nietzsche down because he, like most men of his time, thought women were inferior to men?
Ed: We need more time to work this through. Let’s jump to your writing. What was your first story?
David: First published story? It was called “The Dreamer’s Sleep.” It was about a person in a society who performed the function of a storyteller. I’d attended a workshop with Michael Bishop, Ed Bryant, and Gene Wolfe. We were writing a story every night. We had assignments, and the assignment was to write a story about writer’s block. It wasn’t fun for me; I don’t want to write about writers and the act of writing. So, in this story there’s a winged race of slaves and they’re being held in this cavern and restrained from flying. The protagonist’s role was to tell stories and the stories kept people sane. And then he gets writer’s block and can’t write stories. So, the story is about how he regained that power.
Ed: In the workshop did they recognize this as “Oh, here’s a good one” and not just an exercise?
David: That’s a good question. I can’t remember. I actually sold two of the stories that came out of that workshop.
Ed: Is that workshop where you met Ed? (Ed Bryant)
David: Yes. Eighty-two-ish. I joined the Northern Colorado Writer’s group shortly after that.
Ed: I think that’s about when I joined. When did Neverness come out?
David: That was 1988, but I’d written Shanidar, what ’84, which was a story set in that universe. And that story won the Writer’s of the Future contest. One of the judges was Robert Silverberg. He really liked my story and one day he calls me up on the phone and asks if I’d be interested in writing a novel set in the same universe. It was like God calling. Would I be interested in going to heaven when I die? (Laughs) At the time he was an editor also, he was wearing two hats. He’d contacted me as an editor. Neverness came out in hardcover here (USA), Donald I. Fine publisher. My agent sent the book to England and there was a bidding war. It was picked up by a British publisher and did well. (Neverness set a record advance for a first science fiction novel. It was shortlisted for the Arthur C. Clarke Award and nominated for the John C. Campbell Award for new writers.)
Ed: Well, it made quite a splash. You’re being modest; it was hyped at the time with praise comparing it to a young Arthur C. Clarke, and Isaac Asimov’s name was thrown around too.
David: No, no. Nobody ever thought of me that way. I just wrote a novel that a lot of people thought was good and I sold a fair number of copies. It might have been, “Ok, watch this guy, he’s got a great first novel.”
Ed: Did it free you up to think you could do this for a living?
David: Yeah. I immediately went and proposed a trilogy. It was essentially a sequel to Neverness. It was A Requiem for Homo Sapiens. (The Broken God {second book} was also shortlisted for the Arthur C. Clarke award.)
Ed: How old were you when Neverness came out?
David: I was…35.
Ed: So, you have your career going, you’re writing, you’re kind of set—”
David: Well, I thought I was set.
Ed: When did you get married?
David: I got married 1980. We moved around quite a bit between 1980 and 1987. We were in Oakland, Colorado Springs, then to Virginia, then Washington D.C., then Chicago.
Ed: What was moving you around?
David: My wife’s job. She sold encyclopedias.
Ed: Oh, great. I was just thinking about our encyclopedias growing up. My dad was a salesman at one time. We always had encyclopedias around. I was thinking today, so, what’s the difference between an encyclopedia and let’s say Siri?
David: I’ll never use AI.
Ed: I ask this question of writers all the time—where is the line of demarcation between “This is crap” and “This is a great resource?”
David: I can answer that.
Ed: I’m not sure I can see the big difference at the end of the day.
David: That’s funny, because I can see a huge difference. So, my wife went door-to-door marketing encyclopedias and then she got promoted to National Director. I got to know the people involved in that world. Britannica would say, we need new info on Nietzsche. They would find the experts to write the article. The new article had an expert human filter. That is totally lacking with AI.
Ed: What, the “human expert” filter? Didn’t the human experts, if you will, program the AI at ground zero?
David: Well, you have many of these AIs that operate through LLMs, large language models. When you ask it a question, it will sort through all these words on the internet and then choose the most probable, logic sequence to follow, which may or may not be relevant or accurate. Also, human beings have human judgement. Computers aren’t conscious, as far as I’m concerned, and have no judgement. When that AI is searching all these human sources it’s not searching as a human being would, with consciousness, empathy, judgement, all the things we regard as human. And so some of these AIs come up with things that are totally ridiculous.
Ed: It’s curious, if we take Nietzsche’s position that let’s say 99% of humans are “limited” lack empathy, etc. how does that differ from AI?
David: If you check in with Google, their responses are AI responses. If you looked for Nietzsche’s response on…eternal recurrence, it’s going to be pretty right on. Not everything that comes out of AI is garbage. It can be useful, though I, as a writer dispute AI because “they” are plagiarizing. If you write a poem on let’s say Catholicism and it’s very specific to you and someone else taps into the poem and it taps into the AI and your poem is going to go right into that pool. Maybe that poem isn’t exactly plagiarized but if you hadn’t written that poem the AI couldn’t access it and you’re going to receive zero compensation for that.
Ed: Yes, there’s a whole monetary piece to this. We’ll have to come back to this.
David: I think there’s always been a contract between writers and upcoming writers. An unannounced contract.
Ed: Speaking of writers, when you were young who were your favorite science fiction authors?
David: All the classic 50s, Heinlein, Clarke, Asimov. Going back to the 30s, the space opera, Doc Smith (E.E. “Doc” Smith). He wrote the Lensman and Skylark series. Far future and farfetched science fiction. I loved that sense of adventure. Going into the 60s, Frank Herbert of course, with Dune. Ursula Le Guin—”
Ed: You’d see her name among all the male writers.
David: There were women writing all along, in the 50s, but they had to write under male names—”
Ed: We’re back to George Eliot and the 1800s.
David: The science fiction field was heavily male dominated.
Ed: When I interviewed Connie Willis and asked her about that dynamic, she said it was never a problem for her. In fact, as a woman she found it sometimes worked in her favor and she had more access. But the bottom line was she had the chops and could hang with the “boys”.
David: Well, Connie made a great point about male/female writers and characters. It’s been noted that women are often better at writing male characters than vice versa. Why is that? Well, Connie’s response to that was historically males have been more “dominant” with women as second-class citizens or whatever you want to call it. Because of that women have had their antennae tuned to male nuances and thinking. Is this guy going to get angry and hit me? Women were forced to get into male heads. Much more than the reverse.
Ed: I think that makes sense.
David: I’ve thought about that a lot as my last two, three books have had female protagonists. Something I never would have dared to do when I was younger.
Ed: That’s been a controversial issue what, the last 20 years or so? Appropriation. Males can’t write female protagonists; whites can’t write from the perspective of people of color. A good buddy, who’s mid-nineties now, wrote his novel from the perspective of a Black female head of school. He’d been a Head of School himself so he was qualified to write about the subject. His publisher wouldn’t publish it, not because it wasn’t good, rather, she didn’t want any backlash.
David: So that came up in my thinking when I was writing The Woman and the Whale. Mada, my protagonist, is also a woman of color. Two bases of possible animosity there. My thoughts were, well, first of all, if I write about a woman, a woman of color, people will say, “Here’s this old white guy. He can’t do this.” Not meaning, he can’t do it well, he’s just not allowed.
Ed: Right. It’s taboo in some way.
David: However, if I do what they want me to do—those people—I would only write about people I know and it would be a book about all white people. And they’re gonna’ say, probably the same people, where are the people of color? So, I thought, since I can’t win, as you put it, I will be eviscerated either way, so why not be eviscerated for something I want to do? If I get attacked, well that’s just fine. I’m naturally a competitive, combative person in those circumstances.
Ed: How many novels have you written? It’s listed online, but I want to get it from the source. I don’t always trust the internets. Yesterday I saw online RFK selling ED meds and he was saying he was a doctor and I’m thinking, wait, no you’re not. And why are you selling ED meds?
David: You shouldn’t trust the internet. Let’s see, I have 13…no wait, I messed up. Fifteen. And a couple unpublished.
Ed: What’s the plan moving forward, for the duration? You said you wanted to retire.
David: Yeah, but retirement for me would be writing full time every day. That’s my ideal retirement. In terms of writing what I want to write, so many things. My Neverness universe is like infinitely expansive. I can write about possible consciousness and evolution forever. Anything I can think of can fit into that universe. And then I have my longstanding urge to write poetry. Since my 20s I’ve had this urge to write poetic prose. Is that enough to fulfill me? I’m not sure. I’d like to have the leisure of the space to do that. Just go to the beach for a month. Just sit there and see what comes out.
Ed: Though you started later it seems writing was latent, the spark for why am I here? I’m supposed to write.
David: At some point but not to begin with.
Ed: You stumbled into it?
David: I didn’t, which is, to use a word some folks won’t like, miraculous. I had no idea I was a true writer at heart.
Ed: Do you think it was “implanted” early on?
David: Of course I’d read a great deal of literature. That had to have worked its way into my bones. But at some point I think it wasn’t just “This person wrote a trashy novel” but probably more “This person wrote this great novel.” I wanted to write a great novel too.
Ed: Right. I think great books, great novels can be catalysts.
David: I think that’s a good way to look at it.
Ed: You say an ideal retirement would be writing every day. I think of someone like Joanne Greenberg. She just finished writing two novels and she’s 93. Wouldn’t that be something to be writing at 93?
David: In the unlikely event that I reach 93 I would want to still be writing. To be older and to lose that faculty, that gift and joy of writing…that’s most of my reason for being alive.
Ed: I think for “real” writers, that impulse is always there.
David: Yeah, and that’s what I think makes a true writer. Not that I’m a great writer or I’m cleaving more truly to what writers should cleave to. But just for me that discovery, I have deeper motivations for writing.
Ed: You have two daughters, right? Do they have any children?
David: No
Ed: Do you think they ever will?
David: Inshallah. If God wills it.
Ed: So, it would be cool to be a grandpa?
David: Oh yeah. I think that would be most what I’d want now in life.
Ed: Yeah, it’s pretty cool.
David: Well, I love kids. And the truth is, if things were different I would have liked to get married again and have more kids.
Ed: Do you think there’s a chance at this stage, for another woman in your life?
David: I don’t know. Sometimes I do think…maybe.
Ed: Would you be open to that?
David: Yeah. Sure.
Ed: Out of all of your novels, what’s your favorite?
David: That’s too hard to say. I don’t have a favorite, but Neverness is most people’s favorite. That book is dear to my heart, but so is The Orca’s Song.
Ed: What was the pull for orcas and dolphins and that whole world?
David: Good question. I was walking down the sidewalk one day and in red letters, painted on the sidewalk was the word ORCA. That planted the word in my mind. And at that time, I was writing another book in my Neverness universe. So I had this idea for this orca story and when I woke up it was a full-fledged idea. I’m going to tell a story from an orca’s point of view about his family’s experience with the human race. I immediately got juiced. It’s the first and only time I stopped something I was working on.
Ed: I’m curious, I think orcas, ok, and my question is—you have a whole palette of…animals to choose from.
David: Well, it wasn’t so much a choice.
Ed: You felt compelled—
David: It was in my subconscious obviously and it just broke forth. And I’ve had a long-standing interest in cetaceans. Orcas in particular. I’ve mentioned them in other stories.
Ed: So, do you see orcas as a superior species?
David: What do you mean when you say superior? Superior to animals or to human beings?
Ed: Well, you chose orcas; it’s not about a pig or a monkey or a horse. You had a choice. You picked the orca…or, it picked you.
David: It would be hard for me to write about a talking horse.
Ed: (Sings) “I am Mr. Ed! A horse is a horse of course…” It’s not like I never heard that growing up. (both laugh)
David: Yeah, so it would be hard to convince me that horses are smarter than we think they are and are smarter than human beings. It’s not hard for me to imagine that about orcas. A crow is much more intelligent than we are in doing crow things in order to survive. Same with a baboon or whatever. You know, if we came up with a measure of pure intelligence, it seems to me that orcas would be much more intelligent than we are.
Ed: I used to have this discussion with another writer. He was a professor, University of Arkansas, wrote fiction and non-fiction. Whenever someone in our writing group would go off on how smart horses or dolphins or crows were, he’d grumble and say in his drawl, “Well, if they’re so smart, let’s see ’em make toast.”
David: I’ve heard similar things. I wonder if people who say those things, recognize they’re really demonstrating their lack of intelligence.
Ed: There has to be an ability to look outside yourself, your culture, your humanity. I’m thinking of Elon Musk’s ignorant quote about how empathy is the weakness of Western civilization.
David: It takes quite a bit of knowledge and imagination just to put yourself in another culture and imagine what it would be like. How much imagination would it take to imagine having both of your arms amputated, your legs strapped together, you’re thrown into a pool and then someone says to you, how much intelligence can you have? You can’t make toast.
Ed: There’s that new movie with Sally Field, with an octopus. (Remarkably Bright Creatures) A little cheesy, but it’s good.
David: I don’t mind cheesy.
Ed: You get the octopus’s perspective and he narrates part of the story. Very clever. I think it aligns with the world of your orca. Shifting gears, what would be your advice for young writers?
David: I have virtually no information or advice. I guess I’d say read all kinds of good things, not just in your area. Don’t write towards the market; write what you love.
Ed: And you need to get your million words written, right?
David: More like three million. (Laughs)
Ed: What helped you most when you first started writing?
David: Writing poetry. And the Northern Colorado Writer’s Workshop. Ed Bryant’s group.
Ed: Yeah. So many accomplished writers came out of that group. The Tems, Connie Willis, Dan Simmons, David Dvorkin, Barsotti, Wil McCarthy, John Stith, and on and on.
Well, thanks for your time and the great discussion. I look forward to reading the book.
About the interviewer: Ed McManis has interviewed dozens and dozens of writers which saves him from having to write his own stuff. He’s won more awards than Susan Lucci and has been shortlisted more times than Barney Rubble. His latest chapbook is Trash Truck 7:38 A.M. (And Other Lover Poems) Finishing Line Press. Forthcoming is the highly anticipated chapbook, Sugar Frosted Koans McMania Press.